Members-Help-Members
Technical enquiry service Members-Help-Members (M-H-M) is an initiative under the auspices of the Institute’s Small and Medium Practices Committee (SMPC) to provide non-authoritative guidance and comm ...
Lucullus Shop List - update by Dec 2012
Lucullus Gourmet Shop (龍島美食店)Address TelephoneFaxBusiness HoursMTR-Central 中環港鐵站Shop 14 MTR-Central Station, Central, Hong Kong (near Exit E/F).2530 95572530 326109:00 -21:00(Mon -Fri)香港中環港鐵站14號舖(近E/F ...
AptitudeTestForm200806
AT Form (Revised in June 2008) Page 1 文件1 HONG KONG INSTITUTE OF CERTIFIED PUBLIC ACCOUNTANTS APTITUDE TEST – ENTRY FORM Enrolment deadline: December 2008 session – 24 October 2008 IMPORTANT – Persona ...
sas600
SAS 600 (revised February 04) 1 STATEMENT OF AUDITING STANDARDS 600 AUDITORS' REPORTS ON FINANCIAL STATEMENTS (Issued August 1994; revised April 2000, June 2001; February 2004, September 2004 (nam ...
Shangri-La 2023 Sep ISL
港島香格里拉港島香格里拉港島香格里拉港島香格里拉港島香格里拉夏宮米芝蓮星級中秋月餅及禮物籃夏宮米芝蓮星級中秋月餅及禮物籃夏宮米芝蓮星級中秋月餅及禮物籃夏宮米芝蓮星級中秋月餅及禮物籃夏宮米芝蓮星級中秋月餅及禮物籃夏宮米芝蓮星級中秋月餅及禮物籃夏宮米芝蓮星級中秋月餅及禮物籃夏宮米芝蓮星級中秋月餅及禮物籃SUMMER PALACE MICHELINSUMMER PALACE MICHELINSUMMER ...
WeCare leaflet_4th series_Jul - Sep 2015
Accountants, We Care Lead Organizer: Organizer: Co-organizers: Supporting Organization: Baptist Oi Kwan Social Service Stress is common in city life and increasingly affecting our lives. 14 accounting ...
Web_HKEJ_20150519
Hong Kong Economic Journal is pleased to offer special discount and complimentary service to our members with details as follows: EElliiggiibbllee UUsseerrss HKICPA members, International Affiliates, ...
18x24
24小時攝影活動日及攝影日加油站作品分享會攝影工作坊只需一部簡單的數碼相機便可成為社區攝影師 「民間圖片資料庫」上載照片, 資源共享計劃簡介[ 18 X 24 全城起動齊齊拍]是首個覆蓋全港18區的大型社區攝影活動。透過社區攝影讓參加者可從多角度觀察自已身處的社區,以相片紀錄香港各區面貌及演變,共創社區藝術。計劃對象本區計劃主要為對社區攝影有興趣的人士參與,歡迎學校及團體報名。費用全免報名網址: ...
粵港澳大灣區城市群發展的優勢及路徑探討 (published by Bank of China Hong Kong on 7 March 2017)
粵港澳大灣區城市群發展的優勢及路徑探討 (published by Bank of China Hong Kong on 7 March 2017)
Sponsors 2022
Baker Tilly Hong Kong 天职国际会计师事务所(特殊普通合伙) Bank of China (HK) Limited BDO Limited 德勤华永会计师事务所(特殊普通合伙) 安永华明会计师事务所(特殊普通合伙) 致同会计师事务所(特殊普通合伙) Grant Thornton Hong Kong Limited KPMG 上海玛泽会计师事务所(普通合伙) Mazars CPA ...
LocationMap
Standard Chartered Hong Kong Marathon – 21 January 2018 Direct route to HKICPA marquee CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA Hong Kong Central Libr ...
Marathon2018_BoothLocation
Standard Chartered Hong Kong Marathon – 21 January 2018 Direct route to HKICPA marquee CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA CPA Hong Kong Central Libr ...
YMSC141130_rundown_final
Young Members Group – War game on 30 November 2014 (Sunday) Rundown 09:00 Coach pick up at Mong Kok Pick up point: G.T. College, Sai Yee Street, Mong Kok 旺角洗衣街近優才書院(click here for map) 09:30 Coach pic ...
YMSC141130_rundown
Young Members Group – War game on 30 November 2014 (Sunday) Rundown 09:00 Coach pick up at Mong Kok Pick up point: G.T. College, Sai Yee Street, Mong Kok 旺角洗衣街近優才書院(click here for map) 09:45 Coach pic ...
SRC160504
Folk songs can be described as evergreen songs because they are timeless. If you are interested to find out more about local folk songs, come join the talk where speaker Abel Lam will enrich your know ...
SRC160504
Folk songs can be described as evergreen songs because they are timeless. If you are interested to find out more about local folk songs, come join the talk where speaker Abel Lam will enrich your know ...
case
Category A Category B Category C Tertiary institutions directly affiliated with the PRC Ministry of Education (MoE) (教育部直屬高等學校) Mainland Institutions accredited by the Chinese Institute of Certified P ...
vienna_1208-2
普通話課程Children Putonghua Course /中文寫作班Chinese Writing Course 每班人數Class Size (person) 每堂收費Course Fee /lesson 2 250 /person 3 230 /person 4 – 6 200 /person 兒童英語課程Early Child English Program 每班人數Class Siz ...
update265
i Update No. 265 (Issued 28 September 2021) VOLUME III Document Reference and Title Instructions Explanations Contents of Volume III Discard existing pages i, iv and v and replace with the revised pag ...
i2cpn74021
29 July 2021 To: Members of the Hong Kong Institute of CPAs All other interested parties INVITATION TO COMMENT ON ED PRACTICE NOTE 740 (REVISED) AUDITOR’S LETTER ON CONTINUING CONNECTED TRANSACTIONS U ...
tyt-simon
From: Simon [mailto:simontsao05@yahoo.com.hk] Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 8:22 AM To: P.T. Comment Letter Cc: Tsang John; ACCA Subject: Re: Conceptual Framework for Financial Reporting -The Reporting ...
Event Detail - MyCPA
Event Detail - MyCPA Event Information Event code COUR18112401 Language Cantonese Event name Standard Chartered Marathon Training Programmes - Class 1 Contact info@marathontrainingcentre.com.hk Descri ...
Event Detail - MyCPA
Event Detail - MyCPA Event Information Event code VOHK19082901 Language Mandarin Event name Study tour to Greater Bay Area cities – Foshan, Jiangmen and Zhaoqing 粵港澳大灣區訪問團 – 佛山 ‧ 江門 ‧ 肇慶 CPD hours 6.0 ...
Event Detail - MyCPA
Event Detail - MyCPA Event Information Event code OTHR19110203 Language Cantonese Event name Photography Gatherings (2A) Enrolment restrictions For members only Contact Miss Betsy Liang at 2287 7009 o ...
Event Detail - MyCPA
Event Detail - MyCPA Event Information Event code OTHR19110204 Language Cantonese Event name Photography Gatherings (2B) Enrolment restrictions For members only Contact Miss Betsy Liang at 2287 7009 o ...
Ren_Mirage_Natsu Afternoon Tea
RENAISSANCE HARBOUR VIEW HOTEL HONG KONG 1 HARBOUR ROAD, WANCHAI, HONG KONG 香港萬麗海景酒店香港灣仔港灣道一號T 電話:(852) 28028888 F 傳真:(852) 28028833 WWW.RENAISSANCEHARBOURVIEWHK.COM SAVOURIES咸點CHICKEN TSUKUNE雞肉丸子OKON ...
R_Mirage_Natsu Afternoon Tea
RENAISSANCE HARBOUR VIEW HOTEL HONG KONG 1 HARBOUR ROAD, WANCHAI, HONG KONG 香港萬麗海景酒店香港灣仔港灣道一號T 電話:(852) 28028888 F 傳真:(852) 28028833 WWW.RENAISSANCEHARBOURVIEWHK.COM SAVOURIES咸點CHICKEN TSUKUNE雞肉丸子OKON ...
IAP_Paper 2_20220622
信息分类: 保密Information Classification: Confidential Paper 2 Treatment under HKFRS 17 of the Premium-Based Profit Tax (PBPT) applicable to life insurance entities authorized to issue life insurance contra ...
Timetable-ChinaCourse2018_4A
Timetable of HKICPA's China Tax Course 2018 Workshops (W) Date Venue W1 企业的组成方式、中国税务制度简介及税收征收管理制度10 Feb 2018 HKICPA W2 增值税(一)货物和修理修配劳务3 Mar 2018 HKICPA W3 增值税(二)其他营改增劳务、城市维护建设税及教育附加、资源税及车辆购置税17 Ma ...
Timetable-ChinaCourse2018_3A
Timetable of HKICPA's China Tax Course 2018 Workshops (W) Date Venue W1 企业的组成方式、中国税务制度简介及税收征收管理制度10 Feb 2018 HKICPA W2 增值税(一)货物和修理修配劳务3 Mar 2018 HKICPA W3 增值税(二)其他营改增劳务、城市维护建设税及教育附加、资源税及车辆购置税17 Ma ...
Timetable-ChinaCourse2018_1A
Timetable of HKICPA's China Tax Course 2018 Workshops (W) Date Venue W1 企业的组成方式、中国税务制度简介及税收征收管理制度10 Feb 2018 HKICPA W2 增值税(一)货物和修理修配劳务3 Mar 2018 HKICPA W3 增值税(二)其他营改增劳务、城市维护建设税及教育附加、资源税及车辆购置税17 Ma ...
170411_Cocktail (BJ&SH)_Flyer_1
170411_Cocktail (BJ&SH)_Flyer_1 Cocktail Receptions in Beijing & Shanghai Date Monday, 15 May 2017 Wednesday, 17 May 2017 Time 6:00 p.m. – 8:00 p.m. 6:00 p.m. – 8:00 p.m. Venue Ballroom 1, 2/F ...
170421_Cocktail (BJ&SH)_Flyer
170421_Cocktail (BJ&SH)_Flyer Cocktail Receptions in Beijing & Shanghai Date Monday, 15 May 2017 Wednesday, 17 May 2017 Time 6:00 p.m. – 8:00 p.m. 6:00 p.m. – 8:00 p.m. Venue Ballroom 1, 2/F, ...
170411_Cocktail (BJ&SH)_Flyer
170411_Cocktail (BJ&SH)_Flyer Cocktail Receptions in Beijing & Shanghai Date Monday, 15 May 2017 Wednesday, 17 May 2017 Time 6:00 p.m. – 8:00 p.m. 6:00 p.m. – 8:00 p.m. Venue Treasury I, 2/F, ...
170327_Cocktail (BJ&SH)_Flyer
170327_Cocktail (BJ&SH)_Flyer Cocktail Receptions in Beijing & Shanghai Date Monday, 15 May 2017 Wednesday, 17 May 2017 Time 6:00 p.m. – 8:00 p.m. 6:00 p.m. – 8:00 p.m. Venue Treasury I, 2/F, ...
Mem-1209_Issue4
Dear MBIG Member, In this issue of the MBIG Circular, we have: MBIG seminar on "The Outlook of Micro Finance in the Mainland" (21 September 2012) [NEW] China Desk – free information servic ...
HKICS_final
Supporting organisation Supporting organisation Seminar on “The Statutory Derivative Action under the UK Companies Act 2016: Has it Made Any Difference Ten Years On?” and “Competition Law in the EU, U ...
Joint Seminar on 25 Sep 2017 v8
Supporting organisation Supporting organisation Seminar on “Whistleblowing & Integrated Reporting: Can Hong Kong learn from Australia and South Africa?” and “The Failure of the Statutory Business ...
Joint Seminar on 25 Sep 2017 v7
Supporting organisation Supporting organisation Seminar on “Whistleblowing & Integrated Reporting: Can Hong Kong learn from Australia and South Africa?” and “The Failure of the Statutory Business ...
Joint Seminar on 25 Sep 2017 v6
Supporting organisation Supporting organisation Seminar on “Whistleblowing Reforms: Can Hong Kong learn from Australia?” and “The Failure of the Statutory Business Judgment Rule: What alternative prot ...
Joint Seminar_22_Aug_2016_v5
Supporting Organisation Seminar on “The Enforcement of Investor Protection Laws” and “Director Duties in Practice” 22 August 2016 (Monday) Date : Monday, 22 August 2016 Topic : Session 1 – The Enforce ...
Companies Ordinance Turns Two
Supporting Organisation The 2 March 2016 (Wednesday) As the Companies Ordinance (Cap 622) moves into its third year this seminar brings together industry experts to highlight and discuss issues that ...
beta-IA
Form IA-1 (Revised in September 2008) Page 1 HONG KONG INSTITUTE OF CERTIFIED PUBLIC ACCOUNTANTS (Incorporated by the Professional Accountants Ordinance, Cap. 50) APPLICATION FOR REGISTRATION AS AN IN ...
IA
Form -1 (Revised in September 2008) Page 1 HONG KONG INSTITUTE OF CERTIFIED PUBLIC ACCOUNTANTS (Incorporated by the Professional Accountants Ordinance, Cap. 50) APPLICATION FOR REGISTRATION AS AN INTE ...
bIA
Form IA-1 (Revised in June 2006) Page 1 HONG KONG INSTITUTE OF CERTIFIED PUBLIC ACCOUNTANTS (Incorporated by the Professional Accountants Ordinance, Cap. 50) APPLICATION FOR REGISTRATION AS AN INTERNA ...
1a
Form IA-1 (September 2004) Page 1 P:\MEM\Int'l Affiliates\Form\HKICPA\IA Sep-04.doc HONG KONG INSTITUTE OF CERTIFIED PUBLIC ACCOUNTANTS (Incorporated by the Professional Accountants Ordinance, Cap ...
sr-a1
HKICPA QUALIFICATION PROGRAMME APPLICATION FOR REGISTRATION Please read the leaflets entitled 'Instructions to Applicants' and 'Checklist for Applicants’ carefully before completing this f ...
020604e
-1 -To: News/Business Editor, 2 June 2004 (For immediate release) HKSA Issues Standards on Financial Instruments The Hong Kong Society of Accountants (HKSA) has today issued two Standards dealing with ...
1049_PRC_CF2016_Flyer_online_2016
你的成功之路參展商eunisliu@hkicpa.org.hk www.hkicpa.org.hk/cfgz2016PRC_1049_160115 2016年3月21日前提交網上申請,詳情請瀏覽:www.hkicpa.org.hk/cfgz2016
The May Moon Books
The May Moon Money-Wise Box Set (Parents guide) 《美滿的財智》親子理財書冊 (家長手冊) May Moon Rescues the World Economy May Moon's Book of Choices 美滿抉擇之書 All rights reserved. No part of these books may be reprod ...
newbooks-jun
1 New Books in Library (Jun 2010) Business Finance Title /Author: Fixed income securities : valuation, risk, and risk management /Pietro Veronesi Publisher: Hoboken, N. J. : John Wiley & Sons Year ...
update142
i Update No. 142 (Issued 12 March 2014) Document Reference and Title Instructions Explanations VOLUME III Contents of Volume III Discard the existing pages i to iv, and replace with the new pages i to ...
frf-2009-map-v1
Location Map The address of the Exchange Auditorium: The Exchange Auditorium The Exchange Exhibition Hall 1/F., One and Two Exchange Square, Central, Hong Kong. Note: Please take Exit A of Central MTR ...
ESD Services Limited
Expiry date: 31 Dec 2024 Offers: 5% off on health checkup plans Redemption method: Register an account with health.ESDlife Go to https://health.esdlife.com/shop/hk/section/身體檢查 and select the preferre ...
Assembly point
香港珠海中小型會計師事務所交流活動-珠海訪問團2017年6月16日(星期五) 集合地點: 上環港澳碼頭3樓東橋閘口外,右手面的「電子航班顯示屏」前集合位置
Nina CWB_Long Staying Package
Monthly Rental Rate From HK10,800 net up Long Staying Package 長期住宿計劃Nina Hotel Causeway Bay 銅鑼灣如心酒店月租價格由淨價港幣10,800起Discover more 了解更多More details and enquiries 詳情及查詢: 2280 2983 sarachan@ninahotelgroup ...
20150726&0822_Photography Practice Sessions
20150726&0822_Photography Practice Sessions Photography Practice Sessions The Photography Interest Group (PoIG) has organised two practice sessions in July and August as follows: July 2015 August ...
newbooks-sep
1 New Books in Library New Books in LibraryNew Books in LibraryNew Books in LibraryNew Books in Library New Books in Library New Books in LibraryNew Books in LibraryNew Books in Library New Books in L ...
2021
Sustainability News and Developments Date Title 16 December 2021 Emmanuel Faber appointed to lead the International Sustainability Standards Board 16 December 2021 Cross-Agency Steering Group announce ...
13map
喜來登舞蹈尖沙咀加拿芬道25-31號國際商業信貸銀行大廈13樓(13th Floor, BCC Building, 25-31 Carnarvon Road, TST)
130222_map
百樂會尖沙咀加拿芬道25-31號國際商業信貸銀行大廈9樓(9th Floor, BCC Building, 25-31 Carnarvon Road, TST)
Speaker PPT
Ms. WONG Ho-ning, Jamie Chief Inspector (Ag.) Fraud Section 1 Commercial Crime Bureau 商業罪案調查科Commercial Crime Bureau Contents Commercial Crime Bureau Crime Figures Money Laundering Major Predicate Off ...
Powerpoint_SCPD18091002
Ms. WONG Ho-ning, Jamie Chief Inspector (Ag.) Fraud Section 1 Commercial Crime Bureau 商業罪案調查科Commercial Crime Bureau Contents Commercial Crime Bureau Crime Figures Money Laundering Major Predicate Off ...
Powerpoint_SCPD18091001_old
Ms. WONG Ho-ning, Jamie Chief Inspector (Ag.) Fraud Section 1 Commercial Crime Bureau 商業罪案調查科Commercial Crime Bureau Contents Commercial Crime Bureau Crime Figures Money Laundering Major Predicate Off ...
luckydraw2019
Lucky draw for Career Survey (members) As a token of appreciation, members who spare their time to complete the online survey on or before 15 December 2018 can enter our lucky draw. Prizes for the luc ...
Web_Cool Kids
Cool Kids Dance Academy is pleased to offer special discount and complimentary service to our members with details as follows: OOffffeerrss Discount on below courses: 616 for one-month, 1,716 for thr ...
Nina Hotel Stay Dine Offer from Dec 2022CORP
Nina Hotel Stay Dine Offer from Dec 2022CORP 852 2280 2926 dorothywong@ninahotelgroup.com Complimentary double room category upgrade (subject to room availability and not applicable to suite bookings) ...
Brussels Conference 2005
Brussels Conference 2005 National Day Celebration Dinner Thursday, 12 September 2019 Diamond Sponsor HK45,000 Benefits One complimentary table of 12 seats Display a 10 second greeting video (about t ...
newbooks-sep
New Books in Library (September 2012) Audit and Assurance Title /Author: 企業內部控制審計工作底稿編制指南/中國註冊會計師協會編ISBN: 9787509532584 Publisher: 北京: 中國財政經Year: 2011 Call No.: HF5668.25 .Q596 2011 Subject: Auditing, ...
Web_HKFSI_20160627
Hong Kong Financial Services Institute (HKFSI) is pleased to offer special discount to our members with details as follows: EElliiggiibbllee UUsseerrss HKICPA members OOffffeerr HK5,000 discount for ...
Video Conference Solution Service
Video Conference Solution Service (852) 2513 2513 hkcsc@hkg.fujixerox.com www.fujixerox.com.hk Fuji Xerox Hong Kong Fuji Xerox (Hong Kong) Fuji Xerox Global Fuji Xerox (Hong Kong) Limited. All rights ...
Nina Hotel TWW _CNY Pudding_CPA
圖片只供參考I 優惠受條款及細則約束I 如有任何爭議,酒店保留最終決定權如心酒店集團呈獻一系列賀年糕點及禮品迎接富饒豐盛的虎年自取地點:荃灣楊屋道8號荃灣西如心酒店7樓凡訂購賀年糕點20盒或以上,可獲免費送貨(只限同一送貨地址) 花開富貴金玉滿堂原價CPA優惠瑤柱臘味XO醬蘿蔔糕(900克) HK268 HK198 五香臘味芋頭糕(900克) HK268 HK198 椰汁金糖年糕(900克) HK ...
Nina Hotel TWW - Stay Dine -NP - CPA
Nina Hotel TWW - Stay Dine -NP - CPA Terms & Conditions 條款及細則*Offer valid from January 1until March 31, 2022inclusive. Prices subject to 10% service charge*All package related benefits must be con ...
National Day Dinner_Floor plan
National Day Celebration Dinner 2014 香港會計界慶祝六十五周年國慶聯歡晚會Monday, 22 September 2014 STAGE JW Marriott Ballroom 39 40 38 41 45 46 44 43 37 42 28 29 27 30 34 35 33 36 32 31 18 19 17 20 24 25 23 26 22 16 21 ...
eventSpotlight
DATE AND TIME 27 June – 25 July 2009 (all Saturdays) VENUE Lecture room at the Hong Kong Baptist University (“HKBU”) (A campus map with venue details will be provided to the successful applicants). CO ...
eventSpotlight
DATE AND TIME 27 June – 25 July 2009 (all Saturdays) VENUE Lecture room at the Hong Kong Baptist University (“HKBU”) (A campus map with venue details will be provided to the successful applicants). CO ...
eventSpotlight
DATE AND TIME 27 June – 25 July 2009 (all Saturdays) VENUE Lecture room at the Hong Kong Baptist University (“HKBU”) (A campus map with venue details will be provided to the successful applicants). CO ...
eventSpotlight
DATE AND TIME 27 June – 25 July 2009 (all Saturdays) VENUE Lecture room at the Hong Kong Baptist University (“HKBU”) (A campus map with venue details will be provided to the successful applicants). CO ...
eventSpotlight
DATE AND TIME 27 June – 25 July 2009 (all Saturdays) VENUE Lecture room at the Hong Kong Baptist University (“HKBU”) (A campus map with venue details will be provided to the successful applicants). CO ...
dd_160729old
Dear members, The July dance dinner will be held on Friday, 29 July 2016 at 7:00 pm at 百樂會, 9th Floor, BCC Building, 25-31 Carnarvon Road, Tsim Sha Tsui (尖沙咀加拿芬道25-31號國際商業信貸銀行大廈9樓). Please click here ...
SYSU Elite Application_160616
「中山大学会计精英-QP奖学金计划」申请表个人信息姓名:(中文) (英文) 性别: 电话: 电邮邮箱地址: (非学校电邮地址,方便毕业后联系) 地址: 学习情况现就读年级: 专业: 成绩排名(GPA): 是否获得任何奖项: 注:参加学生需于2016年7月2日或之前把填妥的申请表、现有的学期成绩单、以往获奖或其他会计相关资格证及证书电邮至eunisliu@hkicpa.org.hk
dd_150828
Dear members, The August dance dinner will be held on Friday, 28 August 2015 at 7:00 pm at SLADANCE (喜來登舞蹈), 13th Floor, BCC Building, 25-31 Carnarvon Road, Tsim Sha Tsui (尖沙咀加拿芬道25-31號國際商業信貸銀行大廈13樓). ...
dd_150724
Dear members, The July dance dinner will be held on Friday, 24 July 2015 at 7:00 pm at Sladance (喜來登舞蹈), 13th Floor, BCC Building, 25-31 Carnarvon Road, Tsim Sha Tsui (尖沙咀加拿芬道25-31號國際商業信貸銀行大廈13樓). Ple ...
dd_150424
Dear members, The April dance dinner will be held on Friday, 24 April at 7:00 pm at 百樂會at 9th Floor, BCC Building, 25-31 Carnarvon Road, Tsim Sha Tsui (尖沙咀加拿芬道25-31號國際商業信貸銀行大廈9樓). Please click here fo ...
dd141017
Dear members, The October dance dinner will be held on Friday, 17 October 2014 at 7:00 pm at百樂會, 9th Floor, BCC Building, 25-31 Carnarvon Road, Tsim Sha Tsui (尖沙咀加拿芬道25-31號國際商業信貸銀行大廈9樓). Please click ...
newbooks-apr
New Books in Library (Apr 2014) Auditing Title /Author: Internal Control : integrated framework /COSO ISBN: 9781937352387 (set) Publisher: American Institute of Certified Public Accountants Year: 2013 ...
S090107A
Continuing Professional Development (CPD) Programme Doing Business in Mainland China 7 Jan 2009 (Wed) (Programme Code: ) Speaker : Mr. Eugene P.C. Fung, CPA (Practising) Mr. Fung first crossed the bor ...